Regional Realignment

[Bearhugger]

All of the dialogue about the current regional structure has been geared toward some regions are too strong and others are too weak.

The way you correct that is take 1-2 strong teams and throw them into a weak region.

Parkersburg and Parkersburg South have won almost all of the state team titles in history. Theses two schools have the strongest history and they are the top two teams in AAA now.

Leave one in region 4 and shove one back to region 1. Putting one in region 3 would be even better.

Kanawha county had high schools in two different regions for decades, some less than 12 minutes apart.

The existing regions were put together predominantly based on geography. This caused a strength imbalance. Now to correct the strength imbalance, we are bringing up geographical reasons to leave two schools together.

I don't know who has been upset that region 4 is stronger than others considering it affects no one but region 4 schools (so I assume those who are upset are from region 4), but putting Parkersburg and South in different regions to "balance the regions" serves no purpose. It won't make Parkersburg or South weaker, all it does it guarantee that both teams have a good chance to be region champs every year and gives Huntington a slightly better chance to be region champs. It's not like moving one of those teams into another region suddenly makes the other wrestlers in that region better. Parkersburg and South will still be two of the best teams either way.

Furthermore, when did this become an issue? Haven't Parkersburg and South always been in the same region?

In fact, now that I think about it, the only real change that splitting Parkersburg and South into separate regions creates is it results in more wrestlers from those two schools being at states. As long as they are in the same region then they compete with each other for 4 spots. Moving one of them into a different region eliminates competition from the other and greatly increases their chances of putting more wrestlers in Big Sandy.

Coach Williams, do you think it is correct to keep these 7 teams together in region 4?

Cabell Midland
Huntington High
Hurricane
Parkersburg High
Parkersburg South
Ripley
Spring Valley

Using the most current team poll, here is what we have:

Cabell Midland ranked #9
Huntington High ranked # 4
Hurricane unranked in the top 10
Parkersburg High ranked #2
Parkersburg South ranked #1
Ripley ranked #3
Spring Valley ranked #10

St. Albans is the ONLY ranked team (#7) coming out of region 3.

There are ZERO ranked teams in region 2.

The remaining ranked teams are in region 1.

This looks pretty whacked out to me.

[Frylock]

Round and Round it goes...End the WVSSAC wrestling tournaments altogether. Let USA Wrestling run one tournament where everyone who wants to enter can enter. Seed top 16, random draw the rest. No Regions, JV can enter, one state champion, and the WVSSAC doesn't spend a dime on it. If you're not good enough to have wrestlers in the big tournament then maybe AAU Wrestling could organize a state tournament for the smaller schools. This would also make a good state qualifier for Nationals. Done.

[rodrego]

Bearhugger.....why are you so worried about AAA being watered down....but you aren't for one division?? One state champion eliminates this problem altogether.

[coach_williams]

Coach Williams, do you think it is correct to keep these 7 teams together in region 4?

Cabell Midland
Huntington High
Hurricane
Parkersburg High
Parkersburg South
Ripley
Spring Valley

I see no reason why not. Answer 2 questions for me.

1. How does it benefit wrestling in general by moving strong teams into weaker regions?

2. How does it benefit the teams that are moved?

[coach_williams]

Using the most current team poll, here is what we have:

Cabell Midland ranked #9
Huntington High ranked # 4
Hurricane unranked in the top 10
Parkersburg High ranked #2
Parkersburg South ranked #1
Ripley ranked #3
Spring Valley ranked #10

St. Albans is the ONLY ranked team (#7) coming out of region 3.

There are ZERO ranked teams in region 2.

The remaining ranked teams are in region 1.

This looks pretty whacked out to me.

So the only goal is for other regions to have a ranked team? The teams will still be where they are now and my guess is they still will not wrestle teams from their new region, just like they don't wrestle those teams now. I repeat, all this will do is give those teams a better chance of getting their wrestlers into states. The only accomplishment here is lowering the competition at regionals for the teams currently in region 4. It benefits no one else.

[aaacoach95]

I don't know who has been upset that region 4 is stronger than others considering it affects no one but region 4 schools (so I assume those who are upset are from region 4), but putting Parkersburg and South in different regions to "balance the regions" serves no purpose. It won't make Parkersburg or South weaker, all it does it guarantee that both teams have a good chance to be region champs every year and gives Huntington a slightly better chance to be region champs. It's not like moving one of those teams into another region suddenly makes the other wrestlers in that region better. Parkersburg and South will still be two of the best teams either way.

Furthermore, when did this become an issue? Haven't Parkersburg and South always been in the same region?

In fact, now that I think about it, the only real change that splitting Parkersburg and South into separate regions creates is it results in more wrestlers from those two schools being at states. As long as they are in the same region then they compete with each other for 4 spots. Moving one of them into a different region eliminates competition from the other and greatly increases their chances of putting more wrestlers in Big Sandy.

Coach Williams, do you think it is correct to keep these 7 teams together in region 4?

Cabell Midland
Huntington High
Hurricane
Parkersburg High
Parkersburg South
Ripley
Spring Valley

Using the most current team poll, here is what we have:

Cabell Midland ranked #9
Huntington High ranked # 4
Hurricane unranked in the top 10
Parkersburg High ranked #2
Parkersburg South ranked #1
Ripley ranked #3
Spring Valley ranked #10

St. Albans is the ONLY ranked team (#7) coming out of region 3.

There are ZERO ranked teams in region 2.

The remaining ranked teams are in region 1.

This looks pretty whacked out to me.

I'm not sure why you make the team rankings argument here for regional alignment and then in another thread argue about how wrestling is an individual sport first, team sport second. Seems contradictory to me.

[Bearhugger]

Coach Williams, do you think it is correct to keep these 7 teams together in region 4?

Cabell Midland
Huntington High
Hurricane
Parkersburg High
Parkersburg South
Ripley
Spring Valley

Using the most current team poll, here is what we have:

Cabell Midland ranked #9
Huntington High ranked # 4
Hurricane unranked in the top 10
Parkersburg High ranked #2
Parkersburg South ranked #1
Ripley ranked #3
Spring Valley ranked #10

St. Albans is the ONLY ranked team (#7) coming out of region 3.

There are ZERO ranked teams in region 2.

The remaining ranked teams are in region 1.

This looks pretty whacked out to me.

I'm not sure why you make the team rankings argument here for regional alignment and then in another thread argue about how wrestling is an individual sport first, team sport second. Seems contradictory to me.

Only if you choose to see it that way.

The regions are way out of balance. Globally, using the team rankings collaborates this.

We could go through the individual rankings also and show the same thing.

There are three major issues with WV wrestling.

1. Poor participation
2. Out of balance regions
3. Superior JV wrestlers beating ranked wrestlers, but not being allowed to compete in the regions.

All three of the above points are going to promote a water down state tournament.

Number 1 above is a local/individual school challenge that needs to be handled as such.

Number 2 could be corrected by a wave of the WVSSAC wand.

Number 3 could be corrected by making a rule change to allow the JV to enter the regional tournaments. If a few place, then send them to the state tournament.

Also, before it is said................I will be contacting the WVSSAC weekly until something is done. I will have my detractors and then there will be people who will join in. It might take a few seasons or something could happen sooner.

The one thing I am confident in is that the situations above will only get worse. This will provide more and more examples. Eventually, more people will speak up and help drive needed change.

Some will sit back, do nothing, and reference the glory days when teams were three deep, kids were tough and their was prestige at making varsity on Charleston Catholic's wrestling team.

[Bearhugger]

Using the most current team poll, here is what we have:

Cabell Midland ranked #9
Huntington High ranked # 4
Hurricane unranked in the top 10
Parkersburg High ranked #2
Parkersburg South ranked #1
Ripley ranked #3
Spring Valley ranked #10

St. Albans is the ONLY ranked team (#7) coming out of region 3.

There are ZERO ranked teams in region 2.

The remaining ranked teams are in region 1.

This looks pretty whacked out to me.

So the only goal is for other regions to have a ranked team? The teams will still be where they are now and my guess is they still will not wrestle teams from their new region, just like they don't wrestle those teams now. I repeat, all this will do is give those teams a better chance of getting their wrestlers into states. The only accomplishment here is lowering the competition at regionals for the teams currently in region 4. It benefits no one else.

Some of the other regions are too weak!!!!!!!!!!!! The best wrestlers will no be at the state tournament, thus it is trending in the wrong direction.

When #7 ranked wrestler from region 4 stays home and Wrestler XYZ with his 11-32 record qualifies out of region 2 in the same weight class, this says it all. Something is wrong with the current system.

[Bearhugger]

Coach Williams, do you think it is correct to keep these 7 teams together in region 4?

Cabell Midland
Huntington High
Hurricane
Parkersburg High
Parkersburg South
Ripley
Spring Valley

Using the most current team poll, here is what we have:

Cabell Midland ranked #9
Huntington High ranked # 4
Hurricane unranked in the top 10
Parkersburg High ranked #2
Parkersburg South ranked #1
Ripley ranked #3
Spring Valley ranked #10

St. Albans is the ONLY ranked team (#7) coming out of region 3.

There are ZERO ranked teams in region 2.

The remaining ranked teams are in region 1.

This looks pretty whacked out to me.

I'm not sure why you make the team rankings argument here for regional alignment and then in another thread argue about how wrestling is an individual sport first, team sport second. Seems contradictory to me.

Team wise, Parkersburg South is ranked #1.

Individually, all 14 of Parkersburg South's wrestlers are ranked in the top 10.

Six are ranked first
Two are ranked second
One is ranked third
Three are ranked fourth
One is 5th (in the toughest AAA weight class)
One is sixth (in the second toughest AAA weight class)

[aaacoach89]

Is there any possible situation where 5th place finishers, from Regions that have an abundance of kids, would be taken to the state tournament, this year, in order to fill spots left vacant by Regions that simply cannot fill those spots? If not, then why do even have 5th place finishers awarded at Regional tournaments?

[Bearhugger]

Is there any possible situation where 5th place finishers, from Regions that have an abundance of kids, would be taken to the state tournament, this year, in order to fill spots left vacant by Regions that simply cannot fill those spots? If not, then why do even have 5th place finishers awarded at Regional tournaments?

Whereas there have been many instances in the past where something happens to one of the "top 4 qualifiers", the 5th placer then moves up to 4th and everybody else moves up to fill the opening. This seems to happen each season.

As for anything this season to get the 5th placers involved for filling byes, I am sure that is not possible.

The "word" on the street is that the people well known, well respected, well connected, well empowered appear to also be well helpless in taking action to make some changes to lessen the severity of this situation.

In their defense, this is the first season of the march to a "Watered Down State Tournament" aka WDST. The downward spiral can continue or it can be stopped.

[admin]

Er, um, why not wait and see how the tournament goes before making any pronouncements such as "watered down state tournament."

There are many athletes working very hard to get to the states this year, as they do every year.

To characterize the state tournament as "watered down" is most certainly disrespectful to these athletes as you trivialize their goals.

Please do not disrespect our athletes.

[aaacoach95]

Using the most current team poll, here is what we have:

Cabell Midland ranked #9
Huntington High ranked # 4
Hurricane unranked in the top 10
Parkersburg High ranked #2
Parkersburg South ranked #1
Ripley ranked #3
Spring Valley ranked #10

St. Albans is the ONLY ranked team (#7) coming out of region 3.

There are ZERO ranked teams in region 2.

The remaining ranked teams are in region 1.

This looks pretty whacked out to me.

I'm not sure why you make the team rankings argument here for regional alignment and then in another thread argue about how wrestling is an individual sport first, team sport second. Seems contradictory to me.

Team wise, Parkersburg South is ranked #1.

Individually, all 14 of Parkersburg South's wrestlers are ranked in the top 10.

Six are ranked first
Two are ranked second
One is ranked third
Three are ranked fourth
One is 5th (in the toughest AAA weight class)
One is sixth (in the second toughest AAA weight class)

I think your judgement of which weight classes are the toughest are subjective. Regardless, we should definitely change the alignment because of Parkersburg South. Or better yet, since you said that it is an individual sport, we could break up PS, and sprinkle their wrestlers in all of the four regions. Even better, we could evenly distribute all of the ranked wrestlers on this site amongst all four Regions. We should petition WVmat to expand the rankings to 12 or 16 wrestlers per weight class so we can make it even.

[Bearhugger]

I'm not sure why you make the team rankings argument here for regional alignment and then in another thread argue about how wrestling is an individual sport first, team sport second. Seems contradictory to me.

Team wise, Parkersburg South is ranked #1.

Individually, all 14 of Parkersburg South's wrestlers are ranked in the top 10.

Six are ranked first
Two are ranked second
One is ranked third
Three are ranked fourth
One is 5th (in the toughest AAA weight class)
One is sixth (in the second toughest AAA weight class)

I think your judgement of which weight classes are the toughest are subjective. Regardless, we should definitely change the alignment because of Parkersburg South. Or better yet, since you said that it is an individual sport, we could break up PS, and sprinkle their wrestlers in all of the four regions. Even better, we could evenly distribute all of the ranked wrestlers on this site amongst all four Regions. We should petition WVmat to expand the rankings to 12 or 16 wrestlers per weight class so we can make it even.

Based on your comments, it is obvious what your intentions are.

[aaacoach95]

Team wise, Parkersburg South is ranked #1.

Individually, all 14 of Parkersburg South's wrestlers are ranked in the top 10.

Six are ranked first
Two are ranked second
One is ranked third
Three are ranked fourth
One is 5th (in the toughest AAA weight class)
One is sixth (in the second toughest AAA weight class)

I think your judgement of which weight classes are the toughest are subjective. Regardless, we should definitely change the alignment because of Parkersburg South. Or better yet, since you said that it is an individual sport, we could break up PS, and sprinkle their wrestlers in all of the four regions. Even better, we could evenly distribute all of the ranked wrestlers on this site amongst all four Regions. We should petition WVmat to expand the rankings to 12 or 16 wrestlers per weight class so we can make it even.

Based on your comments, it is obvious what your intentions are.

I don't think it is, you used PS as your example, so I'm simply saying (sarcastically) that obviously we should change the regions up so that it will benefit them

[greencrush]

Er, um, why not wait and see how the tournament goes before making any pronouncements such as "watered down state tournament."

There are many athletes working very hard to get to the states this year, as they do every year.

To characterize the state tournament as "watered down" is most certainly disrespectful to these athletes as you trivialize their goals.

Please do not disrespect our athletes.

QFT (you're right)

AAA is arguably still tougher that AA/A, just less so than it used to be. There are no free spots on the podium in Huntington, regardless of class, or what region a wrestler comes from.

[aaacoach11]

AAA top dogs may be better in some weight classes, but watch on Thursday night and even Friday morning session how much quicker AAA goes. This is due to lack of parity. Lots of quick pins and mismatches in the early rounds. IMO this is bad for the sport. AA/A has much more parity and makes it better to watch throughout the tournament. This can be fixed with regional realignment.

[vortexfan]

Very true Adm on wrestlers working very hard around the state.

I am disappointed on some of the comments about whining or saying this favors South, Huntington or whoever.

To have the best for the sport, THE STUDENT ATHLETE, is to get the best 16 wrestlers competing at the states. Region. 4 in AAA and Region 1 i in AA/A has the probability that their fifths or even sixth place finishers would win vs a champ from another region. This is to not take away from the athletes in other regions at all. This could
Happen to their regions if a crop of good wrestlers come through in the future. I would still stick to my opinion in that case to have two regions North and South and get the top 8 placers compete in the states. Not going to happen this year but I agree with bearhugger and will be changed ntacting SSAC about it. I don't care if you separate Parkersburg and South either, they do wrestle each other a lot in a season and have dominated over the years. Think about upcoming programs like Ripley, Spring Valley, Hurricane. I also remember the days of Wheeling Park, John Marshal and the Fairmont Schools right in the thick of things.

[Sally]

Getting back to the thread topic, Regional Realignment....

I think there are 2 sides. One side believes we should change it and balance the stronger teams. The other side believing regions change strengths and weakness as years pass, regardless of teams changing in and out. I agree that Wood County Wrestling Teams bring strength to the region. I do not think we should separate these teams at regionals. I believe there's too much tradition and fan base (even though Gator would like to see PHS go to region 2 ).

I like the one classification state tournament to crown a true state champion. I like rewarding the team state champion in A, AA, and AAA. I never thought I would agree to more than 1 wrestler from a team entering the regional, until this season.

Question- What if we use a points system for our wrestlers as individuals. This point system would allow us to seed them at regional. Football is the only sport in WV (to my knowledge and I've been wrong before) that the season means anything. We already hold tournaments in state and go to tournaments out of state that we can award wrestlers points for head to head competition. The more points you earn in the season, the higher your rank/seed for regional or states. The NCAA uses "At Large Bids" for wrestlers in tougher conferences so they can still qualify for NCAA Championships. They have a formula and a committee that selects the winner of each bid.

Yes I know this is not football. Yes I know this is not college. This still does not settle the argument for more than 1 wrestler per team per weight classin the regional. However I do think this helps the problem with some regionals being stronger than others. This way you are getting the "tougher" state tournament.

[coach_williams]

I still don't see how realignment fixes anything. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. Realignment might fix the problem for now, but it doesn't fix anything long term. Realign now and what happens in 5 or 10 years when some schools have gotten better while others got weaker? Or when schools consolidate? Realign again to hide the fact that wrestling is not being properly promoted or supported in entire regions? Is it really that hard to look at an athletic director, principal or superintendent and question why wrestling is so poorly supported in their school or district? Realignment doesn't fix jack, it just hides the fact that 90% of schools in this state fail at promoting the sport.

I am sure that a few people will take offense at me saying that entire communities and school districts are failing to properly support wrestling, but I don't care. If your school can come up with 15 short, chubby white kids that will never play basketball after 12th grade for a basketball team then don't tell me that a 5 person wrestling team is all your school can muster.

bearhugger, you pointed out that region 2 has zero ranked teams. Let's see if we can find the problem.

Musselman High School has 1525 students, which is just 51 less than South. Berkeley county has a higher average household income ($55k vs $41k). So why is it that over the last 10 years South has averaged 2nd at states (only lower than 3rd once) and Musselman has averaged 13th (only higher than 13th three times) even though they are comparable in size and Musselman should be at least as equally funded if not better? If it's not money and it's not school size, then what is it? How about we fix issues like this instead of moving schools around to fix the brackets at states for now and ignoring the problem long term?

Here is another one. Ripley 933 students, South Charleston 968. Kanawha county average household income is $45k, Jackson county is $41k. In the last 10 years Ripley has averaged placing 5th, South Charleston has averaged 32nd in the four years they sent a team.

The issue is not the need to spread good teams around. It is parity.

[greencrush]

I still don't see how realignment fixes anything. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. Realignment might fix the problem for now, but it doesn't fix anything long term. Realign now and what happens in 5 or 10 years when some schools have gotten better while others got weaker? Or when schools consolidate? Realign again to hide the fact that wrestling is not being properly promoted or supported in entire regions? Is it really that hard to look at an athletic director, principal or superintendent and question why wrestling is so poorly supported in their school or district? Realignment doesn't fix jack, it just hides the fact that 90% of schools in this state fail at promoting the sport.

Spot on. It also comes down to coaching, and promotion of the sport at youth and middle school levels as well. It takes someone at the top (such as a strong H.S coach) promoting and co-ordinating from top to bottom to build a successful H.S program.

[Jbee]

"watered Down", just stop with your nonsense. I think that is the most disrespectful thing I've ever read on here.

Make your points and get across what your trying to accomplish without disrespecting the student athletes and the people who make sure there is a wrestling program in the state and quit disrespecting the athletes, coaches and administrators from these so called weak regions.

Come on, Geez!

[WrestleWV0130]

Im sure most don't care but changing the regions doesn't just affect wrestling. I'm sure some baseball and basketball parents think the regions aren't "fair" either.

[coach_williams]

I am disappointed on some of the comments about whining or saying this favors South, Huntington or whoever.

It's not whining when those that want realignment outright say they want it because wrestlers from region 4 are being excluded from states while wrestlers from other regions that they think are inferior are getting to go to states.

[coach_williams]

Im sure most don't care but changing the regions doesn't just affect wrestling. I'm sure some baseball and basketball parents think the regions aren't "fair" either.

I don't think that wrestling regions align with regions from other sports. In football teams are simply ranked by the WVSSAC in AAA, AA and A classifications and if you rank high enough in your classification then you to go the playoffs and if you don't then you stay home.

[WrestleWV0130]

That's football. Baseball and basketball go through sectional and regional

[brentsams]

I don't have a solution but here's thinking outside the box again (with tongue in cheek).

AAA - 2 region solution
West Region - top 4 finishers go to state, 5 teams (South, PHS, Huntington, Cabell Midland and Ripley)
East Region - top 12 finishers advance to state, all other teams and JVs (including West Region JVs)

If byes still exist, allow the next highest finisher from the other region go.

[Gator]

Coach Williams, do you think it is correct to keep these 7 teams together in region 4?

Cabell Midland
Huntington High
Hurricane
Parkersburg High
Parkersburg South
Ripley
Spring Valley

I see no reason why not. Answer 2 questions for me.

1. How does it benefit wrestling in general by moving strong teams into weaker regions?

2. How does it benefit the teams that are moved?

Have you heard of the word, parity? When you stack the top 5 returning teams in the same region, some high quality wrestlers are going to be staying home while weaker regions will send wrestlers to the state tournament that some of the stronger region's wrestler have beat all year. It should be about getting the best wrestlers to the state tournament. It really doesn't have anything to do with teams, but the wrestlers on those teams. Using the same theory, you should therefore put most the good wrestlers in the upper bracket at the state tournament and put the weaker ones together in the bottom bracket so they can make the finals. It makes no sense.

Sally, I was joking about sending PHS to the eastern panhandle. I don't care if we stay in the same region. We have a great rivalry with them.

aaacoach95, there are some who get on here and brand South as the next coming. I know it unnerves people to hear it all the time. I tend to go on at times being a fan of the program so long. Hope you don't take it personally.

I've enjoyed reading some great ideas on here and I'm sure that some of the powers that be in the WWSSAC read post on here. Perhaps they will figure out what is best for WV wrestling, but it will take a small army to get the job done. I really enjoyed the thought process of aaacoach26 and the map he put together. Agree or disagree with him, it's ideas and thoughts like this that will possibly lead to changes that will improve wrestling for our state. I know one thing for certain....it is going to take a group of people a lot smarter than me to get it done.

[aacoach117]

............

[coach_williams]

Have you heard of the word, parity? When you stack the top 5 returning teams in the same region, some high quality wrestlers are going to be staying home while weaker regions will send wrestlers to the state tournament that some of the stronger region's wrestler have beat all year. It should be about getting the best wrestlers to the state tournament. It really doesn't have anything to do with teams, but the wrestlers on those teams. Using the same theory, you should therefore put most the good wrestlers in the upper bracket at the state tournament and put the weaker ones together in the bottom bracket so they can make the finals. It makes no sense.

Yes I have heard of parity. I used it in this thread somewhere. Parity has nothing to do with moving teams around to balance competition. In 2010 when the 7-9 Seahawks made the playoffs because they were in a weak division and the 10-6 Giants didn't make it, nobody suggested moving the 10-6 Eagles (who won the NFC East) to the NFC West so that the West could have a legitimate playoff team and the Giants could go to the playoffs.

Parity is about creating equality. If we are going for true parity in WV high school wrestling:
- every team needs to receive the same funding, so all funds raised needs to go into a pool and every team gets an equal share
- every team needs to be given the same travel parameters instead of some getting to travel 300 miles out of state while others are restricted to 50 miles
- every team gets the same opportunity for off-season practice instead of some ADs making wrestling teams stay away from the practice room after the season ends while other ADs "look the other way" as teams hold practice over the entire summer break