138 AAA - A Case Study in Needed Improvement

[Bearhugger]

Using the WVMat AAA Polls that have been compiled by the coaches, here is a break down of the AAA Top 10 at 138 by region:

Region 1 has two wrestlers ranked in the top ten. Four wrestlers qualify for the state tournament from region 1.

Region 2 has only one ranked wrestler in the top ten. Four wrestlers qualify for the state tournament from region 2.

Region 3 has two ranked wrestlers in the top ten. Four wrestlers qualify for the state tournament from region 3.

Region 4 has FIVE ranked wrestlers in the top ten. ONLY Four wrestlers qualify for the state tournament from region 4.

One ranked wrestler (Region 4) is staying home and not getting to go to the state tournament already. The process has put him out before the wrestling begins.

SEVEN unranked wrestlers (2 from R1 + 3 from R2 + 2 from R3) WILL qualify for the state tournament. The process has opened the door for them.

Regions are formed based on geographic location.

Rankings are compiled based on RESULTS on the MAT.

Each geographic region is allocated four state tournament qualifier spots, regardless of talent, ranking or skill set.

I once managed over 150 people. A small portion of the workforce was from Cuba. They shared that in Cuba, each household was given one bar of soap each month, regardless of how many people lived in the house.

[KDunbar]

Do you have any thoughts on "solving" the dilemma, besides buying more "soap"? I'm actually being serious in looking at this and I can initially only think of 3 options.

The first is pray that one region only has 3 wrestlers in that weight class and it works out that the fifth place in the region with 5 ranked wrestlers gets to make the trip (assuming it is a ranked wrestler that actually finishes fifth).

The second brings in the human "error" component when the rankings are being used to qualify wrestlers for the state tournament (kind of like what's being done in the one above). For example, if we only ranked the top eight in each weight class then your dilemma would not exist on paper, even though it's still happening. What if we ranked the top 12? I'm guessing it would be happening even more often than some of us realize. An example would be at the weight class below at 132 in AAA. The coaches poll has Good of Ripley ranked 10th (if you're from Ripley this is not a slam against the coaches poll or the Ripley wrestler). He and Sandy of South have never met head to head, both performed about the same at WSAZ, and you in the most recent Bearhugger poll have Sandy ranked 4th in Region 4 over Good. I have noticed this and felt bad for Sandy being the only "unranked" wrestler on his team but since I could make no strong argument to rank him over Good I just figured he was 11th. Thus the question, what if we ranked 12 wrestlers? There would be 5 ranked wrestlers in region 4 at 132, with only 4 going. As I said, I'm guessing there would be other examples of the same thing occurring. Actually, with 16 wrestlers going to the state tournament, the rankings would have to go out to 16 to make sure no one was being left out and eventually someone from a region who thought they had earned a spot would have to be told otherwise. Obviously the closer the wrestler being left at home is ranked to the fifth position, the more egregious the error. I realize this is not actually a solution, but rather a comment on using the rankings to decide or help decide who attends, as we discuss each year at this time.

The third solution is the "buy more soap" option touted many, paricularly the smaller school crowd. Just expand the state to 4 classifications, have 4 state tournaments, AAAA, AAA, AA, A , skip the regionals and more or less let everyone go. No one get left out and everyone is happy (as if that's ever going to occur). Shoot, with the extra time now we could have the true State tournament the following week with the top six from each classification meeting. But wait a minute, I think we would be right back to where we started.

I'm guessing we're just stuck with, life is tough.

[KSRefBP]

I will just add that I'm pretty sure football is the only sport that takes the top 16, regardless of where they are located. Wrestling is not alone in that there is equal representation from all around the state. Sectionals, regionals.....and then the top 8, top 4, whatever....makes it to the state championships. Baseball, basketball, soccer, track, etc. Just FYI....the state of Ohio also has sectionals and regionals to ensure statewide representation. Not saying that's justification for doing it that way...just pointing it out that WV is not alone in this format.

I believe in basketball....a regional runner up will face another regional champion to ensure the top 8 make it to Charleston.

Brian

[Doyablameme?]

I like Souths 138 pounder here. In case anyone cares.

[Bearhugger]

Do you have any thoughts on "solving" the dilemma, besides buying more "soap"? I'm actually being serious in looking at this and I can initially only think of 3 options.

The first is pray that one region only has 3 wrestlers in that weight class and it works out that the fifth place in the region with 5 ranked wrestlers gets to make the trip (assuming it is a ranked wrestler that actually finishes fifth).

The second brings in the human "error" component when the rankings are being used to qualify wrestlers for the state tournament (kind of like what's being done in the one above). For example, if we only ranked the top eight in each weight class then your dilemma would not exist on paper, even though it's still happening. What if we ranked the top 12? I'm guessing it would be happening even more often than some of us realize. An example would be at the weight class below at 132 in AAA. The coaches poll has Good of Ripley ranked 10th (if you're from Ripley this is not a slam against the coaches poll or the Ripley wrestler). He and Sandy of South have never met head to head, both performed about the same at WSAZ, and you in the most recent Bearhugger poll have Sandy ranked 4th in Region 4 over Good. I have noticed this and felt bad for Sandy being the only "unranked" wrestler on his team but since I could make no strong argument to rank him over Good I just figured he was 11th. Thus the question, what if we ranked 12 wrestlers? There would be 5 ranked wrestlers in region 4 at 132, with only 4 going. As I said, I'm guessing there would be other examples of the same thing occurring. Actually, with 16 wrestlers going to the state tournament, the rankings would have to go out to 16 to make sure no one was being left out and eventually someone from a region who thought they had earned a spot would have to be told otherwise. Obviously the closer the wrestler being left at home is ranked to the fifth position, the more egregious the error. I realize this is not actually a solution, but rather a comment on using the rankings to decide or help decide who attends, as we discuss each year at this time.

The third solution is the "buy more soap" option touted many, paricularly the smaller school crowd. Just expand the state to 4 classifications, have 4 state tournaments, AAAA, AAA, AA, A , skip the regionals and more or less let everyone go. No one get left out and everyone is happy (as if that's ever going to occur). Shoot, with the extra time now we could have the true State tournament the following week with the top six from each classification meeting. But wait a minute, I think we would be right back to where we started.

I'm guessing we're just stuck with, life is tough.

We have been saying life is tough all of my life and before then. However, people are NOT getting tougher and old problems linger while new problems arise.

The best solution I have heard from other people is to take the top 3 from each region and then have a wild card system for the other 4. Compiling data to select the next top 4 is not hard.

[Bearhugger]

Do you have any thoughts on "solving" the dilemma, besides buying more "soap"? I'm actually being serious in looking at this and I can initially only think of 3 options.

The first is pray that one region only has 3 wrestlers in that weight class and it works out that the fifth place in the region with 5 ranked wrestlers gets to make the trip (assuming it is a ranked wrestler that actually finishes fifth).

The second brings in the human "error" component when the rankings are being used to qualify wrestlers for the state tournament (kind of like what's being done in the one above). For example, if we only ranked the top eight in each weight class then your dilemma would not exist on paper, even though it's still happening. What if we ranked the top 12? I'm guessing it would be happening even more often than some of us realize. An example would be at the weight class below at 132 in AAA. The coaches poll has Good of Ripley ranked 10th (if you're from Ripley this is not a slam against the coaches poll or the Ripley wrestler). He and Sandy of South have never met head to head, both performed about the same at WSAZ, and you in the most recent Bearhugger poll have Sandy ranked 4th in Region 4 over Good. I have noticed this and felt bad for Sandy being the only "unranked" wrestler on his team but since I could make no strong argument to rank him over Good I just figured he was 11th. Thus the question, what if we ranked 12 wrestlers? There would be 5 ranked wrestlers in region 4 at 132, with only 4 going. As I said, I'm guessing there would be other examples of the same thing occurring. Actually, with 16 wrestlers going to the state tournament, the rankings would have to go out to 16 to make sure no one was being left out and eventually someone from a region who thought they had earned a spot would have to be told otherwise. Obviously the closer the wrestler being left at home is ranked to the fifth position, the more egregious the error. I realize this is not actually a solution, but rather a comment on using the rankings to decide or help decide who attends, as we discuss each year at this time.

The third solution is the "buy more soap" option touted many, paricularly the smaller school crowd. Just expand the state to 4 classifications, have 4 state tournaments, AAAA, AAA, AA, A , skip the regionals and more or less let everyone go. No one get left out and everyone is happy (as if that's ever going to occur). Shoot, with the extra time now we could have the true State tournament the following week with the top six from each classification meeting. But wait a minute, I think we would be right back to where we started.

I'm guessing we're just stuck with, life is tough.

The regional rankings had some names tossed in here and there in an attempt to get feedback to then create a more accurate ranking. In the absence of feedback, the regional rankings stayed the same. Ripley is a team that wrestled out of state more than most and they do not post their scores. I am sure there could be a few Ripley wrestlers overlooked. We reap what we sew.

[KDunbar]

Do you have any thoughts on "solving" the dilemma, besides buying more "soap"? I'm actually being serious in looking at this and I can initially only think of 3 options.

The first is pray that one region only has 3 wrestlers in that weight class and it works out that the fifth place in the region with 5 ranked wrestlers gets to make the trip (assuming it is a ranked wrestler that actually finishes fifth).

The second brings in the human "error" component when the rankings are being used to qualify wrestlers for the state tournament (kind of like what's being done in the one above). For example, if we only ranked the top eight in each weight class then your dilemma would not exist on paper, even though it's still happening. What if we ranked the top 12? I'm guessing it would be happening even more often than some of us realize. An example would be at the weight class below at 132 in AAA. The coaches poll has Good of Ripley ranked 10th (if you're from Ripley this is not a slam against the coaches poll or the Ripley wrestler). He and Sandy of South have never met head to head, both performed about the same at WSAZ, and you in the most recent Bearhugger poll have Sandy ranked 4th in Region 4 over Good. I have noticed this and felt bad for Sandy being the only "unranked" wrestler on his team but since I could make no strong argument to rank him over Good I just figured he was 11th. Thus the question, what if we ranked 12 wrestlers? There would be 5 ranked wrestlers in region 4 at 132, with only 4 going. As I said, I'm guessing there would be other examples of the same thing occurring. Actually, with 16 wrestlers going to the state tournament, the rankings would have to go out to 16 to make sure no one was being left out and eventually someone from a region who thought they had earned a spot would have to be told otherwise. Obviously the closer the wrestler being left at home is ranked to the fifth position, the more egregious the error. I realize this is not actually a solution, but rather a comment on using the rankings to decide or help decide who attends, as we discuss each year at this time.

The third solution is the "buy more soap" option touted many, paricularly the smaller school crowd. Just expand the state to 4 classifications, have 4 state tournaments, AAAA, AAA, AA, A , skip the regionals and more or less let everyone go. No one get left out and everyone is happy (as if that's ever going to occur). Shoot, with the extra time now we could have the true State tournament the following week with the top six from each classification meeting. But wait a minute, I think we would be right back to where we started.

I'm guessing we're just stuck with, life is tough.

The regional rankings had some names tossed in here and there in an attempt to get feedback to then create a more accurate ranking. In the absence of feedback, the regional rankings stayed the same. Ripley is a team that wrestled out of state more than most and they do not post their scores. I am sure there could be a few Ripley wrestlers overlooked. We reap what we sew.

I understand what you're saying and, as you know, wasn't being crirtical of your rankings. I, like you, had very little information to go on regarding Good versus Sandy. In fairness to Ripley, they did wrestle South in December before South had sorted out their curent starting lineup and Good did best the South wrestler then who is now competing for the JVs at that weight ckass. The regionals in 2 days will sort out that question.

[Ginanni]

138lb AA/A State Runner up last year was not ranked, pinned 2nd & 3rd ranked individuals.

170lb AA/A 3rd place finisher was not ranked.

215lb AA/A Champion was ranked 6th.

Ranking and seeding are done through statistics, they don’t figure in the most important component HEART!!

[Doyablameme?]

138lb AA/A State Runner up last year was not ranked, pinned 2nd & 3rd ranked individuals.

170lb AA/A 3rd place finisher was not ranked.

215lb AA/A Champion was ranked 6th.

Ranking and seeding are done through statistics, they don’t figure in the most important component HEART!!

Agreed

[aacoach117]

Region 4 has FIVE ranked wrestlers in the top ten. ONLY Four wrestlers qualify for the state tournament from region 4.

One ranked wrestler (Region 4) is staying home and not getting to go to the state tournament already. The process has put him out before the wrestling begins.

What you are suggesting here is that ranked wrestlers somehow have a right to be at states, which is a flawed concept. In any given week an unranked wrestler can face a ranked wrestler, win that match and become ranked. We have all seen that average wrestler catch a good wrestler in a situation and pin him. It happens. It doesn't mean that due to that one win he is now one of the top 10 wrestlers in the state, but he will likely be ranked the next cycle, especially if his defeat of the ranked wrestler happens right before the new rankings are completed. That doesn't mean he should be at states.

[KDunbar]

Region 4 has FIVE ranked wrestlers in the top ten. ONLY Four wrestlers qualify for the state tournament from region 4.

One ranked wrestler (Region 4) is staying home and not getting to go to the state tournament already. The process has put him out before the wrestling begins.

What you are suggesting here is that ranked wrestlers somehow have a right to be at states, which is a flawed concept. In any given week an unranked wrestler can face a ranked wrestler, win that match and become ranked. We have all seen that average wrestler catch a good wrestler in a situation and pin him. It happens. It doesn't mean that due to that one win he is now one of the top 10 wrestlers in the state, but he will likely be ranked the next cycle, especially if his defeat of the ranked wrestler happens right before the new rankings are completed. That doesn't mean he should be at states.

You are not wrong. And I am not really one who is worrying about this real or perceived unfairness. However the situation you are describing is not the one that anyone is actually talking about. Not claiming to be any kind of an expert, but I have seen at least 25 of the about 32 AAA teams this year and it has been pretty evident throughout the season that the 5th seeded wrestler at 138 in AAA region 4 is clearly in the top 10 in the state and has the ability and the HEART to possibly be on the podium. Therefore, it is sad that despite working as hard as the next wrestler, he or the wrestler he beats out to go to the State tounament will not get that chance solely because of geography, while a wrestler who likely is only the 20 to 25 best will and with almost no chance of winning a single match and improving the competition at the tournament. This is not about a fluke occurrence.

[Bearhugger]

138lb AA/A State Runner up last year was not ranked, pinned 2nd & 3rd ranked individuals.

170lb AA/A 3rd place finisher was not ranked.

215lb AA/A Champion was ranked 6th.

Ranking and seeding are done through statistics, they don’t figure in the most important component HEART!!

I have a busy day with 2 hours of travel ahead. Regarding the unranked 170lb third placer, you are talking about Dylan Knight of Doddridge. He entered the region last season with a record of 3 and 1. HE WASN'T RANKED, because he had not been wrestling. I had communications with Knight directly before wrestling season and he told me he wasn't wrestling. He was focusing on football. As the season progressed, I had communications with one of Doddridge's wrestling coaches. They were on him to come out. Obviously he wrestled 4 matches before the region.

You cannot expect to be ranked if you skipped the whole season.

I will comment on the other two examples later.

Here are a few exercises for those who choose to do so:

1. Put together a quick ranking of the top 3 in 4 weight classes in terms of "most heart". Please do so now so we can have this before the state tournament. Discussions of heart vs rankings always comes as a hindsight is 20/20 situations.

2. Lets see who the region 4 ranked 138 that does not make the top 4 is. Lets then review what tournaments he has placed in and who he has beat from the other regions that do qualify.

[Doyablameme?]

I like Souths 138 pounder here. In case anyone cares.

And BOOM just like that

[Ginanni]

Bearhugger quit stirring the pot and set back and enjoy the show because you don’t have a dog in the fight….besides that next year it could be 113 needing reviewed in your opinion and as we all know opinions are like a butt hole we all have them!!! Shut up n wrestle!!

[rodneyjwv]

Good call.